The Awakening of Intelligence. J. Krishnamurti
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outwardly and are we only concerned with the outer chaos, and totally neglect the inner chaos? Not finding a solution for the outer, or for the inner, we then try to find a solution in a belief, in the divine?
Naudé: Yes.
KRISHNAMURTI: So in asking a question of this kind, are we dealing with the three things separately, or as a total movement?
Naudé: How can we make them into a unitary movement? How are they related? What is the action in man which will make them the same?
KRISHNAMURTI: I wouldn’t come to that yet. I would ask: why has man divided the world, his whole existence, into these three categories? Why?—and from there move. Now why have I, as a human being, divided the world outside of me from the world inside me, and from the world which I am trying to grasp—of which I know nothing—and to which I give all my despairing hope?
Naudé: Right.
KRISHNAMURTI: Now why do I do this? Tentatively we are asking: is it that we have not been able to solve the outer with its chaos, confusion, destruction, brutality, violence and all the horrors that are going on, and therefore we turn to the inner and hope thereby to solve the outer? And not being able to solve the inner chaos, the inner insufficiency, the inner brutality, violence and all the rest of it, not being able to solve anything there either, then we move away from both, the outer and the inner, to some other dimension?
Naudé: Yes, it is like that. That is what we do.
KRISHNAMURTI: That is what is happening all the time around us and in us.
Naudé: Yes. There are the problems outside which engender the problems inside. Not being able to deal with either, or both, we create the hope of some other, some third state, which we call God.
KRISHNAMURTI: Yes, an outside agency.
Naudé: An outside agency which will be the consolation, the final solution. But it is also a fact that there are things which are really outer problems: the roof leaks, the sky is full of pollution, the rivers are drying up, there are such problems. And there are wars—they are visible outer problems. There are also problems which we think to be inner problems, our secret and closed longings, fears and worries.
KRISHNAMURTI: Yes.
Naudé: There is the world, and there is man’s reaction to it, man’s living in it. And so there are these two entities—at least in a practical sort of way we can say there are. And so probably the trying to solve practical problems overflows into the inner state of man and engenders problems there.
KRISHNAMURTI: That means we are still keeping the outer and the inner as two separate movements.
Naudé: Yes, we are. We do.
KRISHNAMURTI: And I feel that is a totally wrong approach. The roof does leak and the world is over-populated, there is pollution, there are wars, there is every kind of mischief going on. And not being able to solve that we turn inward; not being able to solve the inward issues we turn to something outer, still further away from all this. Whereas if we could treat the whole of this existence as one unitary movement, then perhaps we would be able to solve all these problems intelligently and reasonably and in order.
Naudé: Yes. It seems that is what you speak about. Would you mind telling us how these three problems are really one thing?
KRISHNAMURTI: I am coming to that, I am coming to it. The world outside of me is created by me—not the trees, not the clouds, the bees and the beauty of the landscape—but human existence in relationship, which is called society, that is created by you and by me. So the world is me and I am the world. I think that is the first thing that must be established: not as an intellectual or an abstract fact, but in actual feeling, in actual realisation. This is a fact, not a supposition, not an intellectual concept, but it is a fact that the world is me and I am the world. The world being the society in which I live, with its culture, morality, inequality, all the chaos that is going on in society, that is myself in action. And the culture is what I have created and what I am caught in. I think that is an irrevocable and an absolute fact.
Naudé: Yes. How is it that people don’t see this enough? We have politicians, we have ecologists, we have economists, we have soldiers all trying to solve the outside problems simply as outer problems.
KRISHNAMURTI: Probably because of a lack of the right kind of education: specialisation, the desire to conquer and go to the moon and play golf there, and so on and so on! We always want to alter the outer hoping thereby to change the inner. “Create the right environment”—the communists have said it a hundred times—“then the human mind will change according to that.”
Naudé: That is what they say. In fact, every great university, with all its departments, with all its specialists, one could almost say that these great universities are founded and built on the belief that the world can be changed by a certain amount of specialised knowledge in different departments.
KRISHNAMURTI: Yes. I think we miss this basic thing, which is: the world is me and I am the world. I think that feeling, not as an idea, that feeling brings a totally different way of looking at this whole problem.
Naudé: It is an enormous revolution. To see the problem as one problem, the problem of man and not the problem of his environment, that is an enormous step, which people will not take.
KRISHNAMURTI: People won’t take any step. They are used to this outward organisation and disregard totally what is happening inwardly. So when one realises that the world is me and I am the world, then my action is not separative, is not the individual opposed to the community; nor the importance of the individual and his salvation. When one realises that the world is me and I am the world, then whatever action takes place, whatever change takes place, that will change the whole of the consciousness of man.
Naudé: Would you like to explain that?
KRISHNAMURTI: I, as a human being, realise that the world is me and I am the world: realise, feel deeply committed, am passionately aware of this fact.
Naudé: Yes, that my action is in fact the world; my behaviour is the only world there is, because the events in the world are behaviour. And behaviour is the inner. So the inner and the outer are one because the events of history, the events of life, are in fact this point of contact between the inner and the outer. It is in fact the behaviour of man.
KRISHNAMURTI: So the consciousness of the world is my consciousness.
Naudé: Yes.
KRISHNAMURTI: My consciousness is the world. Now the crisis is in this consciousness, not in organisation, not in bettering the roads—tearing down the hills to build more roads.
Naudé: Bigger tanks, intercontinental missiles.
KRISHNAMURTI: My consciousness is the world and the consciousness of the world is me. When there is a change in this consciousness it affects the whole consciousness of the world. I don’t know if you see that?
Naudé: It is an extraordinary fact.
KRISHNAMURTI: It is a fact.
Naudé: It is consciousness that is in disorder; there is no disorder anywhere else.
KRISHNAMURTI: Obviously!
Naudé: Therefore the ills of the world are the ills of human consciousness, and the ills of human consciousness are my ills, my malady, my disorder.
KRISHNAMURTI: Now when I realise that my consciousness is the consciousness of the world, and the consciousness of the world is me, whatever change that takes place in me affects the whole of consciousness.
Naudé: To this people always say: that’s all very well, I may change, but there will still be a war in Indo-China!
KRISHNAMURTI: Quite right, there will be.
Naudé: And ghettos and over-population.
KRISHNAMURTI: Of course, there will be. But if each one of us saw