The Awakening of Intelligence. J. Krishnamurti
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exercising will upon his own life, upon his own behaviour, and his own thinking.
KRISHNAMURTI: Which means, one has to understand the meaning of effort. What it is, why effort exists at all. Is that the way to bring about a transformation in consciousness? Through effort, through will?
Naudé: Yes.
KRISHNAMURTI: Which means what? Change through conflict. When there is the operation of will, it is a form of resistance; to overcome, to suppress, to deny, to escape—all that is will in action. That means life is then a constant battle.
Naudé: Are you saying that simply one element in this consciousness is dominating another?
KRISHNAMURTI: Obviously. One fragment dominates another fragment.
Naudé: And that there is still conflict? There is still disorder by that very fact. Yes, this is clear.
KRISHNAMURTI: So, the central fact still remains. There must be a radical transformation in consciousness and of consciousness. Now, how is this to be brought about? That is the real question.
Naudé: Yes.
KRISHNAMURTI: We have approached it by thinking that one fragment is superior to the rest, to the other fragments within the field of consciousness.
Naudé: Indeed we have.
KRISHNAMURTI: Now that fragment which we call superior, intelligence, intellect, reason, logic, is the product of the many other fragments. One fragment has assumed authority over other fragments. But it is still a fragment and therefore there is a battle between it and the many other fragments. So is it possible to see that this fragmentation does not solve our problems?
Naudé: Because it causes the division and the conflict, which right from the start was our problem.
KRISHNAMURTI: That is, when there is division between man and woman there is conflict. When there is a division between Germany and England or Russia, there is conflict.
Naudé: And all this is division within consciousness itself. Also, the exercise of will upon consciousness is again a division within consciousness.
KRISHNAMURTI: So one has to be free of the idea that through will you can change the content. That is important to understand.
Naudé: Yes, that the exercise of will is simply the tyranny of one fragment over another.
KRISHNAMURTI: That’s simple. One also realises that to be free of will is to be free of this fragmentation.
Naudé: But religions in the world have always called upon will to come in and do something.
KRISHNAMURTI: Yes. But we are denying the whole of that.
Naudé: Yes.
KRISHNAMURTI: So what is a mind to do, or not to do, when it sees will is not the way, when it sees that one fragment taking charge over another fragment is still fragmentation and therefore conflict?—and therefore still within the field of misery. Then what is such a mind to do?
Naudé: Yes, this is really the question.
KRISHNAMURTI: Now, for such a mind is there anything to do?
Naudé: When you say that, one says, “If there is nothing to do then the circus goes on.”
KRISHNAMURTI: No, Sir. Look! The circus goes on only when there is the exercise of will.
Naudé: Are you saying that the circus that we have been discussing and trying to change, is in fact made up of will?
KRISHNAMURTI: My will against your will, and so on.
Naudé: My will against another part of me.
KRISHNAMURTI: And so on.
Naudé: My desire to smoke . . .
KRISHNAMURTI: That’s just it. A mind which starts by saying, “I must change,” realises that one fragment asserting it must change is still in conflict with another fragment, which is part of consciousness. It realises that. Therefore it also realises that will, to which man has become accustomed, which he takes for granted is the only way to bring about change . . .
Naudé: … is not the factor of change.
KRISHNAMURTI: Is not the factor of change. Therefore such a mind has come to quite a different height.
Naudé: It has cleared up a great deal.
KRISHNAMURTI: A vast quantity of rubbish.
Naudé: It has cleared up the division between the inner and the outer; the division between consciousness and its content. It has cleared up also the division between the conscious entity and the consciousness belonging to him and the various fragments. And it has cleared up the division between different fragments in that consciousness.
KRISHNAMURTI: So what has happened? What has happened to the mind that has seen all this? Not theoretically but actually felt it and says, “No more will in my life”. Which means no more resistance in my life.
Naudé: This is so extraordinary it is like finding the sky at the bottom, one day. It is such a great change, it is difficult to say what the extent of that change is.
KRISHNAMURTI: It has already taken place! That is my point.
Naudé: You are saying that there is no more will, there is no more effort, there is no more division between the outside and the inside . . .
KRISHNAMURTI: … no more fragmentation within consciousness.
Naudé: No more fragmentation.
KRISHNAMURTI: That is very important to understand, Sir.
Naudé: No more observer separate from what he has observed.
KRISHNAMURTI: Which means what? No fragmentation within consciousness. Which means consciousness only exists when there is conflict between fragments.
Naudé: I am not sure that I have understood that. Consciousness is its fragments?
KRISHNAMURTI: Consciousness is its fragments and consciousness is the battle between the fragments.
Naudé: Are you saying that there are only fragments because they are in conflict, in battle? When they are not battling together they are not fragments, because they are not acting as parts. The acting of one part on another ceases. That is what it means when you say fragmentation. That is what fragmentation is.
KRISHNAMURTI: See what has taken place!
Naudé: The fragments disappear when they are not acting against each other.
KRISHNAMURTI: Naturally! When Pakistan and India . . .
Naudé: . . . are no longer fighting, there is no more Pakistan and India.
KRISHNAMURTI: Naturally.
Naudé: Are you saying that that is the change?
KRISHNAMURTI: Wait, I don’t know yet. We’ll go into it. A human mind has realised that the world is “me” and I am the world, my consciousness is the consciousness of the world, and the world’s consciousness is me. The content of consciousness with all its miseries and so on is consciousness. And within that consciousness there are a thousand fragmentations. One fragment of those many fragments becomes the authority, the censor, the observer, the examiner, the thinker.
Naudé: The boss.
KRISHNAMURTI: The boss. And so he maintains fragmentation. See the importance of this! The moment he assumes the authority, he must maintain fragmentation.
Naudé: Yes, obviously. Because it is a part of consciousness acting on the rest of consciousness.
KRISHNAMURTI: Therefore he must maintain conflict. And conflict is consciousness.
Naudé: You have said that the fragments are consciousness;